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 Post subject: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-08 10:21 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Hey folks,

I'm looking at re-jigging the Ur-Dragon precon, and I want to make it into a Dragonstorm deck. As such I probably won't need a lot of Dragons - so what would you put in to such a deck?

I'm probably looking at 3, 4, 5, and 6-Dragon packages (depending on the Storm count I get to) which can inflict some serious damage to my opponents or their board.

I have a few ideas but rather than skew people's thoughts, I'd like to see what y'all can come up with.

So, whaddya got? Lay it on me!

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-08 11:48 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
After a quick look-through, here would be my starting maybe-list (not sorted/organized):

The Ur-Dragon





Notes:
- Scion of the Ur-Dragon really likes Wheel of Sun and Moon
- Buyback and rebound can boost storm count fairly easily
- If your meta isn't big on tribal, you can really get great milage out of things like Harsh Mercy and Patriarch's bidding (non-bo with the Wheel, but you won't always have it, or you may need to get back what went to the yard before it was out)
- Dragon Auras and the like are a flavor thing
- Nalathni Dragon is a pet-card of mine... I do so love banding on defense

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Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-08 12:05 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I was going to ask about Nalathni Dragon lol

Likewise with Teeka's Dragon (which I'd never even heard of until just now) - Rampage 4 is pretty funny though.

I don't think I'll put *all* the Dragons <X> enchantments in (Dragon Wings especially seems a bit suboptimal in a deck where most creatures already fly)

Thanks though! Furious scribbling of notes

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-08 12:44 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
I was going to ask about Nalathni Dragon lol


Easy to get on MTGO, probably harder in paper. Definitely a combat trick in a playgroup that hasn't dealt much with banding or doesn't understand how it works on defense.

Viperion wrote:
Likewise with Teeka's Dragon (which I'd never even heard of until just now) - Rampage 4 is pretty funny though.


Just add Lure effect, stir and laugh...I also like having Phyrexian Splicer to remove the flying when attacking into a non-flying token horde (ohh, Avenger of Zendikar? I'll have your 20 plants block Teeka and you can have 60 points of trample damage to the face...).

Note:
If playing the actual Lure, for me it's gotta be Phil's art
Image

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-08 2:20 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
A little off-Topic, but maybe you can get some ideas from this thread: http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15862 and/or my take on that concept: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/melek-dragonstorm/

It's usually enough to get Scourge of Valkas, Utvara Hellkite and some number of Dragons with haste - depending on the number of opponents.

_________________
If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Generals:
too many, and always changing... except:

Rakdos, Lord of Riots (Demon Tribal)
Melek, Izzet Paragon (Dragonstorm) -> these must stay because of a house rule


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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-08 3:30 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
I have Nicol Bolas dragonstorm sitting on my desk. I've never actually sleeved it up to play :oops:

I think you only need a few of the dragons Treamayne rattled off (although the Teeka tech is pretty diabolical)... I figure the sweet spot is storm count 4, which grabs Lathliss, Scourge of Valkas, Utvara Hellkite, and Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund

If I can math good, this should get 27 damage off the first batch of Lathliss tokens + Scourge triggers (2+3+4+5+6+7), plus an extra 77 damage (8+9+10+11+12+13+14) off the Utvara Hellkite tokens + Scourge triggers when you attack. And then you have 38 power attacking. Unless someone's been gaining a lot of life, that's probably enough to kill the table.

At Storm 5, you got some extra razzle dazzle to work with. Since you're in 5 colors, you could put Dragonlord Dromoka into play first, which probably thwarts any removal/fog/whatever that might save the table. If Life Gain Guy is a problem, Scourge of the Throne probably fixes them (note that all the Utvara Hellkite tokens you made in attack step 1 are now free to attack in step 2). Or if there are relevant blockers in the way, Thundermaw Hellkite probably clears them.

At Storm 6+, you're probably wandering into gratuitous overkill. You could drop in whichever dragons you didn't grab from above, or if you really need the extra damage, the next best dragon is Kolaghan, Storm's Fury (it pumps the whole team for each dragon, so at this point each dragon is getting +11/+0 or more). If you really hate other people having creatures, Silumgar, Drifting Death is fine.

Down at the other end of the scale, if you're storming for 3 or less, you're probably trying some sort of defensive move (ie, you can't win yet, but you're gonna die if you don't do something). In this case, you probably want some combination of Dragonlord Silumgar (steal a blocker, or problem permanent, Dragonlord Atarka (incinerate a problem), and probably still Lathliss (get those blockers!)

Putting it all together, I'd prioritize these 10:

Lathliss, Dragon Queen
Scourge of Valkas
Utvara Hellkite
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Dragonlord Dromoka
Scourge of the Throne
Thundermaw Hellkite
Dragonlord Silumgar
Dragonlord Atarka
Dragonlord Kolaghan (yes it's redundant with Karrthus. But the team haste is really good, and it's nice to have a backup in case one or the other isn't in your library when you storm off.)

Storm decks tend to be tight on space (they work best with lots of cantrips, rituals, cheap artifacts, etc), so try to avoid going overboard with extra dragons. If the deck has space though, these are the next best ones:

Bladewing, the Risen (sometimes you end up discarding an important dragon to a Wheel or Faithless Looting, so you need to get it back)
Runehorn Hellkite (this is secretly a surplus wheel, but if you Dragonstorm for 12 and need an extra...)
Kolaghan, Storm's Fury (gratuitous!)
Silumgar, Drifting Death (it's not terrible if you have to hard cast it)
Bogardan Hellkite (backup Atarka... the years have not been kind to this card)

On the storm side, there's a couple neat cards that everyone forgets, but I got sleepy writing all this.

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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-08 3:51 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Kemev's post has everything I was about to suggest and more. (Though note that you can stack the Lathliss triggers so they resolve before the Scourge triggers for 3 + 3 + 5 + 5 + 7 + 7.)


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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-09 12:01 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
NMS wrote:
Kemev's post has everything I was about to suggest and more. (Though note that you can stack the Lathliss triggers so they resolve before the Scourge triggers for 3 + 3 + 5 + 5 + 7 + 7.)


Thanks, I knew I was going to screw that up somehow.

I went ahead and posted my Nicol Bolas list here.

There a couple cards that I've played with in other storm builds that I think are really cool, but get forgotten a lot...

Spoils of Evil: admittedly conditional, but with a lucky wheel or timely board wipe can be stupid
Long-term Plans: good enough for Legacy, but routinely overlooked in Commander. Especially good with...
Mind's Desire: Easiest way to cast big storm spells (like Dragonstorm). Use on of the "tutor to top of library" cards like Mystical Tutor, or Long-Term Plans, to stack Dragonstorm on/near the top of the deck, then Mind's Desire into it.
Quicken: A lot of players forget that Storm counts other players spells, so sometimes the easiest way to get a decent storm count is to do it on someone else's turn. Also a handy panic button if you need to drop a Blasphemous Act or Vandalblast.

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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-09 2:09 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
Kemev wrote:
Use on of the "tutor to top of library" cards like Mystical Tutor, or Long-Term Plans, to stack Dragonstorm on/near the top of the deck, then Mind's Desire into it.


Mind's Desire is good (I also play it), but it makes you shuffle before you flip the top card.

_________________
If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Generals:
too many, and always changing... except:

Rakdos, Lord of Riots (Demon Tribal)
Melek, Izzet Paragon (Dragonstorm) -> these must stay because of a house rule


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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-09 3:30 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Frig. How did I forget that?

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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-10 6:13 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
It occurred to me that Scourge of Valkas, Changeling Hero, Changeling Titan, and Changeling Berserker is infinite damage. Replace a changeling with Worldgorger Dragon for infinite mana too, at the risk of getting all your permanents exiled for good if someone has removal.


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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-11 10:41 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think you have one more changeling than you need there NMS but honestly I can't be bothered figuring it out hahaha

Re: Tutor packages for Dragonstorm (the card)

Cards that just straight up get DS into my hand:
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Tutor
Dark Petition
Invent (from Invert // Invent)
Demonic Collusion
Diabolic Revelation (but it's expensive)
Grozoth (No one ever sees the Grozoth coming)
Final Parting (plus one card into my graveyard)
Increasing Ambition
Mastermind's Acquisition
Razaketh's Rite
Rune-Scarred Demon
Planar Portal (12 mana..)
Ring of Three Wishes (10 mana...)
Conflux
Gamble

Cards that get it into my hand with hoops:
Beseech the Queen (if I have 9 lands in play...)
Behold the Beyond (I'm counting "discard your hand" as a hoop)
Diabolic Intent
Razaketh, the Foulblooded
Sidisi, Undead Vizier

Cards that tutor to other places:
Vampiric Tutor (top of library - Yes, also Imperial Seal and Cruel Tutor but I'm not made of money)
Entomb (graveyard)
Insidious Dreams (top of library)
Liliana Vess (top of library)
Long Term Plans (3rd card of library)
Mystical Tutor (top of library)
Personal Tutor (top of library) (little pricey)

Not sure how many/which ones to play but will probably go with

Demonic (I own one, from somewhere)
Diabolic
Dark Petition
Invert // Invent
Demonic Collusion
Grozoth
Final Parting
And one of Liliana Vess, Mystical Tutor, or Vampiric Tutor

Probably enough?

_________________
"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-12 5:04 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Viperion wrote:
I think you have one more changeling than you need there NMS but honestly I can't be bothered figuring it out hahaha

No, you need 3 to form a loop.


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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-15 4:37 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Viperion wrote:
Demonic (I own one, from somewhere)
Diabolic
Dark Petition
Invert // Invent
Demonic Collusion
Grozoth
Final Parting
And one of Liliana Vess, Mystical Tutor, or Vampiric Tutor

Probably enough?


Out of Liliana, Mystical, or Vampiric, I'd take the Mystical. Less mana than Lili, less money than Vamp.
Also, I think you're liable to get choked on 5+ CMC cards.

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 Post subject: Re: 5-colour Dragonstorm
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-15 2:12 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Someone on a Discord I'm on suggested Tooth and Nail which isn't a bad idea

_________________
"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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