Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Nov-11 7:35 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-11 9:50 am 

Joined: 2014-May-30 4:57 pm
Age: Hatchling
A player's commander is Bruna, the Fading Light, and it is melded into Brisela, Voice of Nightmares. The player is affected by Leadership Vacuum. Where does Gisela, the Broken Blade end up?

My thought is she gets stuck in the Command Zone forever.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-11 11:25 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
That...is a genuinely good question. I'm still googling around for an answer. seems like probably?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-11 12:32 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
712.4. If a melded permanent leaves the battlefield, one permanent leaves the battlefield and two cards are put into the appropriate zone.


Sure looks like both halves go to the command zone, and you can recast only your commander.

_________________
Deepglow Skate
Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-12 12:20 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
yet another fantastic reason WotC should stop screwing around with the command zone.

_________________
Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-12 9:34 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
yet another fantastic reason WotC should stop screwing around with the command zone.

It’s kind of a corner case. There’s exactly two cards it affects, which is are companion to each other, the 367th and 629th most popular commanders in EDHRec, with 0.085% of decks collectively. It’s not what I’d call a pressing problem.

_________________
Deepglow Skate
Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-12 2:42 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
yet another fantastic reason WotC should stop screwing around with the command zone.
Or they can adjust a rule to handle this tiny window.

Why does everything have to be so dramatic with you?

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-12 11:43 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
How does an opponent even cast Leadership Vacuum in this circumstance? Either the Brisela player casts it targeting themselves (which is unlikely because they're mono-white) or Ertai's Meddling was involved.

But yeah, this card does need an errata. The Rules Committee may have a lackluster regard for the comprehensive rules (i.e. exact wording of the command tax rule on the website vs in the C.R.), but the people who designed the card thankfully don't. Someone should bring the problem to them.

_________________
.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-13 12:15 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MMLgamer wrote:
How does an opponent even cast Leadership Vacuum in this circumstance? Either the Brisela player casts it targeting themselves (which is unlikely because they're mono-white) or Ertai's Meddling was involved.

But yeah, this card does need an errata. The Rules Committee may have a lackluster regard for the comprehensive rules (i.e. exact wording of the command tax rule on the website vs in the C.R.), but the people who designed the card thankfully don't. Someone should bring the problem to them.


The spell targets a player, who returns their commander(s) to the command zone. So it can certainly be used offensively.

Honestly, it doesn’t seem like it’s even worth addressing right now. Leadership Vacuum doesn't feel like it’ll become a card you see reliably, to me. It’s so narrow. So there’s a rules interaction that adversely affects something like one in 1200 commander decks, under certain conditions (I’ve never seen a Brisela deck played - how reliably do they meld?) Is that a problem that needs a rules clarification? I don’t know.

_________________
Deepglow Skate
Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-13 1:24 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
How does an opponent even cast Leadership Vacuum in this circumstance? Either the Brisela player casts it targeting themselves (which is unlikely because they're mono-white) or Ertai's Meddling was involved. [...]


The spell targets a player, who returns their commander(s) to the command zone. So it can certainly be used offensively. [...]


... but can never be cast, because Brisela herself forbids it (cmc 3).

Problem solved?

_________________
If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Generals:
too many, and always changing... except:

Rakdos, Lord of Riots (Demon Tribal)
Melek, Izzet Paragon (Dragonstorm) -> these must stay because of a house rule


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-13 4:28 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think, yes. Does anyone know a workaround?

_________________
Deepglow Skate
Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-13 6:20 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Thor_Naadoh wrote:
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
How does an opponent even cast Leadership Vacuum in this circumstance? Either the Brisela player casts it targeting themselves (which is unlikely because they're mono-white) or Ertai's Meddling was involved. [...]


The spell targets a player, who returns their commander(s) to the command zone. So it can certainly be used offensively. [...]


... but can never be cast, because Brisela herself forbids it (cmc 3).

Problem solved?


As it is right now, this is the correct answer.

As far as other future cards that may or may not be printed would occur, the half you use as a commander would return to the command zone. The other half would go to exile, as it would return to the zone it was last in when entering the battlefield from the meld, since it is unable to go to the zone it is told to go to.

_________________
You know you've said something right when Sheldon hits you with a QFT...

http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=233412#p233412


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-13 8:20 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
I think, yes. Does anyone know a workaround?

1. Brisela's controller casts Leadership Vacuum targeting theirself. This would most likely be because they're a blue player who's stolen Brisela. But it could also happen if Brisela's owner has Chaos Wand or Shell of the Last Kappa, or a blue player has donated them a Planeswalker's Mischief, or an Elite Arcanist or Kaho, Minamo Historian imprinting Leadership Vacuum.

2. (Maybe.) Bruna and Gisela have been made into copies of Hanweir Garrison and Hanweir Battlements (e.g. with Shapesharer, Unnatural Selection, and Lifespark Spellbomb). Their controller uses the meld ability of the Battlements in response to Leadership Vacuum targeting them. I think this would successfully meld them, but as far as I can tell the rules don't really cover it.


tgambitg wrote:
As far as other future cards that may or may not be printed would occur, the half you use as a commander would return to the command zone. The other half would go to exile, as it would return to the zone it was last in when entering the battlefield from the meld, since it is unable to go to the zone it is told to go to.

I don't think this is right. In general objects don't remember that they previously existed in other zones. (There's a long list of exceptions to let spells and abilities that need that information work.) And I don't see any rule that prevents arbitrary cards from moving to the command zone.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-13 8:46 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
I think, yes. Does anyone know a workaround?

Any of the myriad effects that remove abilities from a creature. Most are less than 3cmc, but not all, and there are ways to get them into play without casting them, like sun titan.

tgambitg wrote:
As far as other future cards that may or may not be printed would occur, the half you use as a commander would return to the command zone. The other half would go to exile, as it would return to the zone it was last in when entering the battlefield from the meld, since it is unable to go to the zone it is told to go to.

There is no reason that any card can't be put into the command zone.

A simple solution would be to change the wording of the commander rules, rule 8 to read "while a card is in the commander zone..."

This would mean any castable card that is sent to the command zone can be retrieved, but once it is out it is a normal card again.

_________________
Favourite Deck:
Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-13 3:25 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
NMS wrote:
2. (Maybe.) Bruna and Gisela have been made into copies of Hanweir Garrison and Hanweir Battlements (e.g. with Shapesharer, Unnatural Selection, and Lifespark Spellbomb). Their controller uses the meld ability of the Battlements in response to Leadership Vacuum targeting them. I think this would successfully meld them, but as far as I can tell the rules don't really cover it.


That won't work. When exiled cards return, they're whatever is printed on them - they're treated as new objects.

_________________
If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Generals:
too many, and always changing... except:

Rakdos, Lord of Riots (Demon Tribal)
Melek, Izzet Paragon (Dragonstorm) -> these must stay because of a house rule


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leadership Vacuum and Melded Commander
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-14 1:09 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
This could basically only happen if the player controlling Brisela somehow plays another person's Leadership Vacuum with Chaos Wand or something else that lets them do it. They'd either have to target themselves or the target would have to be changed to them.

It's such a fringe case. I'd personally be in favor of changing the rules to fix this eventuality, but I don't deem in necessary unless another meld commander comes along that makes it less unlikely to actually be seen in gameplay without trying to make it happen.

It's such an unlikely occurrence that it hardly even matters.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 44 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: