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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-23 12:49 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kirkusjones wrote:
So, at what point/percentage of the playerbase do people like myself who play in stores with mostly randoms get help beyond "the social contract is your friend" and "don't like a pod, pick your shit up and find another one"?

Emphasis mine. The question that immediately comes up into my head is partially rhetorical, but also genuine: imagine you are the supreme alpha dictator of the RC. What would you do to help players in your situation that isn't currently being done?

Based on what people keep saying, the answer seems to be making changes to the banlist, something that IMO will do exactly nothing to help. The RC could do one of two things:

1. Ban (insert combo card or popular commander here), preventing casual players from using it and shaking up the competitive meta for about a week before everything goes back to exactly the way it was but with a new face.

2. Ban the actually overpowered cards like fast mana or cheap tutors, eliminating the very thing that draws so many people to play cEDH in the first place.

Honestly, asking the RC to help with problems like the ones you're facing seems to me like asking the executive board of Heinz how to get a ketchup stain out of your favorite shirt. The issue is related to their product, but not in a way that is their job or even necessarily their area of expertise. If there's some possible action that the RC could take to assist in this type of situation I (and presumably they) would love to hear it; I'm just pretty sure that such a solution does not exist.

All that being said, the solution I've found to playgroup problems is just to have multiple decks. I'm a bit out of the ordinary as I'm currently almost finished with the 32 deck challenge, but even if I had to narrow it down to my 4-5 favorites I could still get a pretty diverse range of deck types and power levels. As a result, I can play a game with pretty much everyone and any deck (aside from arguably 1v1 cEDH). I also go pretty far out of my way to build decks in such a way that if I were to play against it I would have nothing to complain about, which has lead to my opponents almost never complaining or asking me to leave the table.


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-23 1:00 pm 
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I have a variety of decks on a sliding power scale, from a 75-80% mono-G Selvala down to a more thematic Grismold, the Dreadsower plant/gardening/farming deck. I go to a couple of different shops because they do EDH on different nights, so I go to the one that fits into my schedule when I have the free time. There is a pretty good balance between regulars and randoms (like myself) at the places I frequent, with usually between 20-40 people, depending on the night.

EDIT - To address Kong's post, without posting again.

Here's the thing: I've been a somewhat active user on this sit for quite a while and while I still tend to skew more competitive than most on here, I've taken a lot of what's been said on here to heart. I was working on degenerate builds of Kess and Brudiclad sometime in the last couple of months and then shelved them because they'd be miserable for the rest of the table. I've built combo-breaker decks and varied up my power levels with what I bring to the shop. I talk about power levels before games to gauge what to play. Sometimes this works, but there are still plenty of times where the games aren't all that enjoyable because my definition of 50% could be higher or lower than the other people in the pod. What I'm saying is the stuff that has been suggested is not enough.

Which is why I've asked for help from the RC. If I had answers, I'd offer them up, but as I don't, I've come to the authority for guidance.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


Last edited by kirkusjones on 2019-Sep-23 1:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-23 1:05 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kirkusjones wrote:
So, at what point/percentage of the playerbase do people like myself who play in stores with mostly randoms get help beyond "the social contract is your friend" and "don't like a pod, pick your shit up and find another one"?
I would genuinely ask you what kind of help you would find useful.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-23 1:06 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Kong's question is a good one though; what could the Rule Committee even do to help you in that situation?

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-23 1:33 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
See the above post for a more detailed answer to Kong's initial response. As for what the RC could help me with, I know it's not bans or unbans.

I've thought about the whole splitting of the format a lot in the last few months, but it really wouldn't do a lot to corral the pubstompers and would necessitate an additional ruling body and ban list, which brings its own set of issues.

The only thing I can think of would be some sort of additional structure for games outside of an established group. Which would have to be one helluva silver bullet to craft to maintain the openness of what the format was intended to be. I'm at a loss, because I do love this format quite a bit, which is why I posted in the topic. To engage the sometimes benevolent hivemind of this site, that, when it wants, can come up with some solid suggestions and solutions. Put those brains that developed those esoteric wordings to get hybrid mana to work differently or to eliminate off-color fetches from the format. Y'all got good brains, help a brother out.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-23 1:52 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kirkusjones wrote:
Put those brains that developed those esoteric wordings to get hybrid mana to work differently or to eliminate off-color fetches from the format. Y'all got good brains, help a brother out.


Would love to help, but I feel like in the interest of full disclosure, there is no mention of hybrid in the Commander rules (it works exactly like all other formats), and we never actually managed to eliminate off color fetches :)

Gavin spends a bunch of time thinking about alternate structures, so it is something on our radar. I'm kind of curious to see if we come up with any interesting ideas at the CommanderFests.


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-23 1:56 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Apologies, I was referring to some posts in the rules discussion threads about theoretical wordings for such rules, as conjured up by non-RC users. More an appeal to put that energy to use on a more wide-ranging issue.

_________________
specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-23 4:41 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kirkusjones wrote:
Apologies, I was referring to some posts in the rules discussion threads about theoretical wordings for such rules, as conjured up by non-RC users. More an appeal to put that energy to use on a more wide-ranging issue.

I wish such a thing was possible, but people have been working on it for years and not made even a dent. The major issue is, too much of this is relative. Sure I can jam you out a comp rule that lets people play hybrid, because thats a rule. I dont see a rule that can make people 'not be a total D-bag'. And honestly I think thats what we want when we sit down at an LGS, games with other people who aren't.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-23 8:48 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
MadMage wrote:
I'm just a fan of the format. But it's nice to see fans treated this way - first by insisting they prostrate themselves before deigning to ask questions of their overlords and then telling them the format isn't for them because they didn't bring a small mob to counter claims of [as far as I'm concerned] fabricated numbers.

Bringing my experience and opinion to lend support to those I agree with isn't prostrating anything, jackass. You insist that your opinion is the only one that matters with nothing to back it up while saying that others' opinions don't matter because they don't have the "data." Where's your data? Where's your credibility? As far as I see, you're just another person claiming that they could manage the format better than the people who have been doing it for well over a decade. Try helping your store with local bans before you try changing the format that millions of people play.

How's this for data: I've been playing this format since before Wizards picked it up. I started playing back then because of the rules themselves. It was a wild and crazy format, and now, years later, I play nothing but EDH, and lots of it. People are able to play broken cards fairly. People want to play with cards in their collection. The small ban list draws people in. They see it and ask "I can play anything not on this list?! Sweet! I've introduced dozens upon dozens of people to the format, and that's more less the universal reaction.

I was super excited when I started playing because I could FINALLY play my Toalrian Academy; it was the only format it was allowed in at the time. When it was finally removed from the format, I was saddened, but I understood why then, and had no intention of leaving this incredible format.


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-23 11:14 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Rule 0.5 - Don't be an asshole. Something all of us need to be reminded of from time to time.

Yes, I get that this is subjective and impossible to enforce, but something blunt like this in the philosophy document (and finding a way to get the philosophy document in front of more players, I'm looking at you, Wizards) might be a good place to start.

_________________
specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-24 12:15 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
The RC is powerless to enforce their rules. There are no judges that can DQ someone or a DCI to ban people. They need local leaders to deal with the bad apples.

I went to a LGS for a Commander event. I got put in a pod with a guy blatantly cheating. The staff didn't deal with it so I never went back there. Bad local leadership can't be fixed from afar.

The data the RC is doing pretty good with their current strategy is that a player-created, and still managed format is one of the most popular. Its rules not only get a yearly official product, but also influence the design of standard cards.

Asking the RC to fix your bad local leadership issues isn't realistic, and it has nothing to do with the ban list.


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-24 1:03 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
I specifically stated that changes to the ban list won't solve the problems people without a regular or semi-regular group face. If your point is that the RC's influence/responsibility over the format starts and ends with managing the rules/ban list, then that's a different story. If that's your point, then we're back to "figure it out", which isn't helpful.

Ultimately, what I think needs to happen is a culture shift among players. Yes, this can happen at the local level, but it needs to come from both the top down and the bottom up. It's a huge task, but one that would ultimately be beneficial to the game and players as a whole. Wizards has made some effort towards this over the last few years, but there's still a lot of work to be done.

_________________
specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-24 2:21 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
The RC updated their philosophy document. They updated messaging on their banning philosophy. They created and talk to a broader group of advisers. I think they are trying to do what you want. It just takes time. But ultimately, the culture is more powerfully controlled by local leaders.

In my experience at that game store, they created a bad league points system and were hands off to the point they let one customer cheat their other customers. They thought it was an easy way to get people to show up and spend money. They didn't care about building a good culture. Other people have better points systems and more hands on leadership because the owner knows and cares about doing that work.


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-24 9:29 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Dee123 wrote:
The RC updated their philosophy document. They updated messaging on their banning philosophy. They created and talk to a broader group of advisers. I think they are trying to do what you want. It just takes time. But ultimately, the culture is more powerfully controlled by local leaders.

In my experience at that game store, they created a bad league points system and were hands off to the point they let one customer cheat their other customers. They thought it was an easy way to get people to show up and spend money. They didn't care about building a good culture. Other people have better points systems and more hands on leadership because the owner knows and cares about doing that work.
Dee123 wrote:
The RC is powerless to enforce their rules. There are no judges that can DQ someone or a DCI to ban people. They need local leaders to deal with the bad apples.

I went to a LGS for a Commander event. I got put in a pod with a guy blatantly cheating. The staff didn't deal with it so I never went back there. Bad local leadership can't be fixed from afar.

The data the RC is doing pretty good with their current strategy is that a player-created, and still managed format is one of the most popular. Its rules not only get a yearly official product, but also influence the design of standard cards.

Asking the RC to fix your bad local leadership issues isn't realistic, and it has nothing to do with the ban list.

This sounds like a store problem and if they allow cheaters they will soon find themselves without a local scene.


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 Post subject: Re: Why even have a Rules Committee?
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-24 9:45 am 
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Age: Dragon
I'm glad the RC rewrote the philosophy document. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people who are introduced to the format by individuals who've never been to this website, let one seen the philosophy document. I'll cross-post this into the "headed to Seattle" thread, but I think the RC needs to come up with a quick and dirty version of the document that Wizards can then include with pre-cons and on the Mothership. Retail product is where many players make their first contact with the format. Imagine how cool it would be to see a note from players who created one of the most popular formats in the game that says "Hey, welcome to Commander, we were once players just like you. Here's what we see as the vision of the format. Your mileage may vary, but have fun!" Sort of a "Hell yeah, welcome to the cool kids' club!"

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
Twenty Kavus and a Dream is not a legacy deck.


Last edited by kirkusjones on 2019-Sep-24 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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