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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-31 4:39 am 
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Thraximundar wrote:
this could have been just as possible with evacuation as it could have been with rift.

Or Kederekt Leviathan + Restoration Angel. Or just a straight-up Rout if the green player doesn't have Heroic Intervention in hand. My point was not that Rift alone was the answer, so much as that in my experience it's an answer to a threatening boardstate 90% of the time, not a card that just says "I win". And yes, answer cards are often boring, but we need to have answers, and being one of the best answers available doesn't in itself mean the card needs banning.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-31 7:20 am 
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foolx wrote:
Just to add my view here: Rift is the single most used card after Sol Ring in our Meta. When anyone (but me) plays blue, there will be a rift.

It is a boring card and very imbalanced like no other card at all!
I would love to see that card gone for good, as it does not add anything to edh and makes blue, the already strongest color, even stronger with an unequaled removal spell.


If we were talking about Legacy or Vintage, I would agree with you. But in EDH, I would say Green or Black is more powerful with Sultai being arguably the strongest option. People ramp like crazy and play the craziest of things, being able to bounce them and close out a game isnt a bad thing in and of itself.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-01 9:56 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Inkeyes22 wrote:
foolx wrote:
Just to add my view here: Rift is the single most used card after Sol Ring in our Meta. When anyone (but me) plays blue, there will be a rift.

It is a boring card and very imbalanced like no other card at all!
I would love to see that card gone for good, as it does not add anything to edh and makes blue, the already strongest color, even stronger with an unequaled removal spell.


If we were talking about Legacy or Vintage, I would agree with you. But in EDH, I would say Green or Black is more powerful with Sultai being arguably the strongest option. People ramp like crazy and play the craziest of things, being able to bounce them and close out a game isnt a bad thing in and of itself.


As an individual color this is just flagrantly untrue, blue is by far the best color in this format. That however does not mean I want rift banned, and honestly blue being the strongest color in the format has basically nothing to do with rift.

Yes it's an insanely ubiquitous card, yes you can use it to win the game if you have the right board state, yes it is by far the best sweeper in the game but despite the incessant whining about it, creatures are getting harder and harder to interact with. Hexproof, indestructible, uncounterable, sacrifice immunity, teferi's protection, mass recursion etc. etc. all these things make dealing with a strong board state damn near impossible. Quite frankly if WotC keeps printing cards like teferi's protection we're going to need more rift quality sweepers for more than just blue.

I play black. Lots of it. When the black player has an instant speed sac outlet, especially if it's a mana altar, plus instant speed recursion, actually removing or at least impeding their game plan becomes a pipe dream without blue. Blue isn't the best color because of one card, blue is the best color because it has the best card draw in the game, all of it instant speed, and the widest variety of answers with a slew of unique applications and can use almost all of them at instant speed.

It's funny to me then, how many people want to ban tutors, because if all the tutors went away tomorrow the meta would likely become 70% blue because they would still be hands down bar none the best at digging through the deck.

Ban rift tomorrow and not a whole lot will change outside of what that card slot becomes, and there are a laundry list of options for that. Quite frankly I'd much rather every blue deck run rift than every blue deck goes back to running Reins of Power or Academy Ruins + Oblivion Stone or Kederekt Leviathan clone lock.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-01 7:03 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jan-01 6:00 am
Age: Wyvern
Gath Immortal wrote:
Ban rift tomorrow and not a whole lot will change outside of what that card slot becomes, and there are a laundry list of options for that. Quite frankly I'd much rather every blue deck run rift than every blue deck goes back to running Reins of Power or Academy Ruins + Oblivion Stone or Kederekt Leviathan clone lock.


That is not even close to the current situation and all of those "options" are weaker than rift, since they use more than one card AND all hit their own board as well, and that is the main issue with Rift, it is totally one sided!


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-02 8:25 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
foolx wrote:
and that is the main issue with Rift, it is totally one sided!

While Upheaval is banned but is a perfectly symmetrical effect and is a sorcery. These RC guys sure are clueless.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-02 3:15 pm 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
specter404 wrote:
foolx wrote:
and that is the main issue with Rift, it is totally one sided!

While Upheaval is banned but is a perfectly symmetrical effect and is a sorcery. These RC guys sure are clueless.

+1 for bridge troll.

I’ve been able to outplay rifts in white/red. Black, green, red and blue, black, red.

I run a handful of counterspells and of those counterspells I almost never counter rift (in the grixes list specfically).

So I understand the feel bass just don’t think in the overall format that a card that slows the game or answers a board state is relevant or nessary to be banned. With that thought in mind you might as well ban possibility storm for slowing the game down or preventing specfic spells and decks from playing the game. That card slows games to a crawl for everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-03 8:32 am 
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MrMoustache wrote:
No. It doesn't bounce lands, which are your main resource. If it bounces some artifact ramp (or mana dorks), that's the trade-off for getting to ramp with artifacts (or creatures).

Not sure if you're trolling or if you genuinely think lands are all that matters in a Commander game. I mean, should we appeal for Stone Rain to be banned?

MrMoustache wrote:
No. The blue player still has to have a board state, or still has to have some way of winning. And if they play this and then attack everyone for the win, then they've ended the game quickly, and you can shuffle up for a new game. Compare this to Coalition Victory, where you can just play this and win on the spot, out of nowhere, even when all you have is 8 lands, your commander, and 1 life.

If you had been paying attention to the thread, you would've seen I already conceded this point on the first page.

MrMoustache wrote:
I'm not sure what problematic cards you think this forces you to play when your opponent plays Cyclonic Rift in their decks. Examples?

Again, this makes it seem like you didn't pay any attention to the thread and merely decided to nitpick on the Commander Philosophy argument I wrote initially. Go read the first post again, this time in full. The examples are there.

MrMoustache wrote:
Counterspell and Duress (and their ilk) are hardly "dedicated, narrow responses". They have all sorts of uses beyond just Cyclonic Rift. Same with mass blink effects like Teferi's Protection or Eerie Interlude.

Of course, why have a ban list at all when everything can be answered by running more counters and discard spells! :facepalm:

See the "dies to removal" argument.

MrMoustache wrote:
This sounds more like an issue with a specific playgroup. I play Rift in a lot of my decks, and sure it's good when I draw it, but my deck isn't built around getting Rift out and winning with it. Might be time to have a chat with the people you play with and ask them to not build their decks specifically to get it every game.

It's not specific to a playgroup, it's happening everywhere, which, again, you would've understand if you had read the first post in full. Rift is omnipresent in the format and belongs to the color with the best effects to recur instants from the graveyard. While not as "repetitive" as Primeval Titan, it does lead to fatigue of having to play your whole board several times over the course of several games (and sometimes even in the same game). Maybe this is not something that bothers you, but it personally has been annoying me a lot to see this card so overly played for the past years (hence the thread's title). And I'm sure it has been annoying a lot of other people too.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-03 9:11 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I read the first post. The RC had a long discussion about Rift last meeting, really over whether a card that was omnipresent but not all that problematic was an issue we needed to take action on. Ultimately, we don't think so. It's the best at what it does, but being the best is not in and of itself a reason to be banned. Sometimes it makes games worse, other times it makes them better.

As we've said all along, the criteria in the philosophy document are not a checklist. Even beyond that, I disagree with several of your assessments.

It does not cause severe resource imbalances. Everyone else still has the cards, they've just been set back in tempo. They still have all their land in play, so they'll be able to do relevant things in their next turn.

It does not allow players to win out of nowhere. The person who has cast it has to already have a substantial board presence to take advantage if they're winning. A lot of the time, its an emergency reset button.

It does not cause players to play certain cards because of its existence. There's no evidence that people are changing their deckbuilding en masse because the card is in the format. It's simply a card that gets played a lot.

I'll give you hard to interact with, but reactive bounce and removal spells generally are. Rout is also hard to interact with. You interact with the board so that they can't take advantage of it.

It doesn't lead to repetitive game play, where the deck is consistently trying to Rift as part of its path to victory. It gets played at all kinds of times and in all kinds of situations.

I think it creates memorable games all the time. It foils plans (last time I saw it, it was following up me casting Omnath, Locus of Rage and Verdant Confluence, and other players were similarly doing silly things. It was a reasonable "y'all need to calm down").

There's no denying it's a strong card. I'm sure it'll get discussed again in the future, but its biggest sins are being strong and (as a result) popular, and that's not going to land it on the banlist for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-04 3:03 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-14 9:53 am
Age: Wyvern
Maluko wrote:
MrMoustache wrote:
No. It doesn't bounce lands, which are your main resource. If it bounces some artifact ramp (or mana dorks), that's the trade-off for getting to ramp with artifacts (or creatures).

Not sure if you're trolling or if you genuinely think lands are all that matters in a Commander game. I mean, should we appeal for Stone Rain to be banned?

I genuinely think that there is a trade-off for playing artifact ramp and mana dorks. Yes, you get to ramp, but they're also more vulnerable. Also, since overloaded Rift costs 7, you should have gotten some use out of those already. And of course they're only bounced, not destroyed, so next turn you should be able to get a bunch of them back into play. Regardless, claiming the card causes severe resource imbalances is not true. If having those mana rocks in play is the only way to play your deck, either you got a very unlucky opening hand and draws (which sucks, but it happens), or your deck is poorly constructed (in which case, build your deck better).

Maluko wrote:
MrMoustache wrote:
No. The blue player still has to have a board state, or still has to have some way of winning. And if they play this and then attack everyone for the win, then they've ended the game quickly, and you can shuffle up for a new game. Compare this to Coalition Victory, where you can just play this and win on the spot, out of nowhere, even when all you have is 8 lands, your commander, and 1 life.

If you had been paying attention to the thread, you would've seen I already conceded this point on the first page.

I replied prior to reading the rest of the thread. I don't apologise for that.

Maluko wrote:
MrMoustache wrote:
I'm not sure what problematic cards you think this forces you to play when your opponent plays Cyclonic Rift in their decks. Examples?

Again, this makes it seem like you didn't pay any attention to the thread and merely decided to nitpick on the Commander Philosophy argument I wrote initially. Go read the first post again, this time in full. The examples are there.

OK, I re-read it (I read it the first time too). You don't mention a single problematic card in it that you are required to run if your opponent plays Cyclonic Rift. And if you think Aetherling, Sudden Substitution, or Agent of Treachery are problematic, then it sounds like you have an extremely underpowered meta, where Cyclonic Rift is too powerful. That would be an issue with your specific meta, and not representative of most playgroups.

And yes, I focused on your attempt to use the Commander Philosophy document because many people attempt to use it to support their desire to ban a card, but (whether intentionally or inadvertently) misinterpret the points it makes (such as you did).

Maluko wrote:
MrMoustache wrote:
Counterspell and Duress (and their ilk) are hardly "dedicated, narrow responses". They have all sorts of uses beyond just Cyclonic Rift. Same with mass blink effects like Teferi's Protection or Eerie Interlude.

Of course, why have a ban list at all when everything can be answered by running more counters and discard spells! :facepalm:

See the "dies to removal" argument.

I notice you didn't actually refute my argument here. I take it you agree that these are not "dedicated, narrow responses", and therefore concede the point?

Maluko wrote:
MrMoustache wrote:
This sounds more like an issue with a specific playgroup. I play Rift in a lot of my decks, and sure it's good when I draw it, but my deck isn't built around getting Rift out and winning with it. Might be time to have a chat with the people you play with and ask them to not build their decks specifically to get it every game.

It's not specific to a playgroup, it's happening everywhere, which, again, you would've understand if you had read the first post in full. Rift is omnipresent in the format and belongs to the color with the best effects to recur instants from the graveyard. While not as "repetitive" as Primeval Titan, it does lead to fatigue of having to play your whole board several times over the course of several games (and sometimes even in the same game). Maybe this is not something that bothers you, but it personally has been annoying me a lot to see this card so overly played for the past years (hence the thread's title). And I'm sure it has been annoying a lot of other people too.

And yet I don't see it in my meta. You claim one thing, I claim another. Both of us see it through our respective lenses. As I said (and you ignored), "Might be time to have a chat with the people you play with and ask them to not build their decks specifically to get it every game."

Also, what papa_funk said above.


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-04 9:07 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Annedocte time:

Playing on MTGO last night I saw rift in two games. Once used by an opponent, because I had rite of replication kicked targeting Gary, the other used by me because one opponent had played pact of negation and only just had enough lands to pay for it, which meant rifting before their turn made them miss their turn.

Neither time won the game, neither time gave the casting player an insurmountable advantage, and neither of the players that cast it went on to win the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-04 9:15 am 
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specter404 wrote:
targeting Gary

I'm curious... targeting who? (ie, I'm not familiar with that short-form name, anybody wanna translate for me?)


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-04 9:24 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-04 12:06 pm 
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Ahhhh! Thanks! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-04 2:18 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Yup, not the most entertaining way to win in my zombies deck, but when the play is there I don't mind doing it. Part of me was glad the rift came because it mean't I got to rebuild by zombie army.

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 Post subject: Re: Please ban Cyclonic Rift, I am so sick of seeing this card
AgePosted: 2019-Sep-08 1:31 am 

Joined: 2019-May-15 8:39 am
Age: Wyvern
specter404 wrote:
Yup, not the most entertaining way to win in my zombies deck, but when the play is there I don't mind doing it. Part of me was glad the rift came because it mean't I got to rebuild by zombie army.


Which is actually something else I feel gets overlooked about Rift a lot of times: It's not always the right answer to every situation. I've had plenty of games where I was sandbagging a Rift and my opponents had insane board states and I just *didn't* want to Rift because at least one of the players just had so many derpy value EtB creatures that bouncing them all would have been worse for everyone else involved. Turns out you don't want to make the guy with a Terastodon and a Karmic Guide pick up his board without an exit strategy.


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