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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-11 6:46 pm 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
Cull the weak and death to suspicion play. If someone is trying to hide their commander/general it’s most likely because they don’t want to be targeted. If you are coming into the game with that in mind then your playgroup or people you’ve played with have made you jaded about the game.

I love animar decks that play morph or Zur astral slide, but if someone brings a cEDH deck of the same verity it’s best to just let them eject themselves from the game once they play their infinite combo. I don’t think people play any hate for specific colors save for pyroblast on a rare occasion.

It would be nice if someone could sit down and not be targeted with the extra baggage they have with the commander they play, but that depends on how your opponents want to play the game.

I think most of the issue of who reveals what comes from that. I don’t suspect someone playing general color hate as much as red flags going up when someone plays mono white Avcyn and tries to throw down an oppoents only Armageddon :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-12 10:57 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Thraximundar wrote:
if someone brings a cEDH deck of the same verity it’s best to just let them eject themselves from the game once they play their infinite combo.

Even if they are playing a tuned combo deck and they do go off and then scoop and walk away, a concession can massively impact the landscape of a game, and as such it can still be a pretty unfun situation after they leave. It is far better to simply not have them play, or at the very least see what kind of deck it really is first.

If it's a known player, and you therefore know their deck is miserable, DON'T PLAY WITH THEM. It's pretty simple, really. As (usually) non-sanctioned games, it's not like we're forced to put up with whatever our opponents have. Obviously there's some limits to that, but if there's an outlier that wants to dominate with some miserable STAX BS, and the meta isn't in a position to tolerate such a thing, it's reasonable to say no. If they're trying to hide the fact that they want to do this, it is reasonable to say no more strongly.

And people really need to be honest about this kind of thing. I've seen situations where someone says they have a "casual" deck, and then they try to combo the table turn 3.

Thraximundar wrote:
If someone is trying to hide their commander/general it’s most likely because they don’t want to be targeted.

That doesn't work. If you hide your general until everyone's picked one, and it's something offensive, you're going to be targeted anyways. The only thing it would help you dodge is the kind of BS meta deck selection I described in my earlier post, and that is best dealt with other ways.

Thraximundar wrote:
It would be nice if someone could sit down and not be targeted with the extra baggage they have with the commander they play, but that depends on how your opponents want to play the game.

Sure, but a lot of that baggage is well-earned, and unless you KNOW your opponent doesn't have that sort of build, the intelligent play is to assume that they do. I've been down this road - I have a Sharuum deck that I built tribal sphinx, and I had to make sure people understood it wasn't a combo deck as many Sharuum decks were (and probably still are). But you CAN do that. Again, communication is key.

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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-12 6:41 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Sure, but a lot of that baggage is well-earned, and unless you KNOW your opponent doesn't have that sort of build, the intelligent play is to assume that they do. I've been down this road - I have a Sharuum deck that I built tribal sphinx, and I had to make sure people understood it wasn't a combo deck as many Sharuum decks were (and probably still are). But you CAN do that. Again, communication is key.

I'll have to do this with my own decks when I want to build an Atraxa deck. It's not going to be a mega combo deck, or an infect deck, or a superfriends deck, or so many other things I've seen people respond poorly to, and I'm going to have to clarify that: it's just going to a "be big 'n tall" +1/+1 counters deck along the lines of what the precon was.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
If it's a known player, and you therefore know their deck is miserable, DON'T PLAY WITH THEM. It's pretty simple, really. As (usually) non-sanctioned games, it's not like we're forced to put up with whatever our opponents have. Obviously there's some limits to that, but if there's an outlier that wants to dominate with some miserable STAX BS, and the meta isn't in a position to tolerate such a thing, it's reasonable to say no. If they're trying to hide the fact that they want to do this, it is reasonable to say no more strongly.

Bit of a tangent, but it's not really that simple. Or rather it's simple to say, not so simple in doing it. (I'd like to see more social guidance from the EDH RC to help us navigate these situations, the RC being—at least in theory—the foremost experts in navigating EDH situations and the best positioned to advise on them. Maybe reality is different to theory here.)

For example, let's take a not-super-abnormal interaction from before I moved home:
  • It takes 40 minutes to get from work to home.
  • It also takes 40 minutes to get from work to the game shop I can play at.
  • It takes a bit over an hour to get from the game shop back to home.

When I arrive at the game shop there are seven people. Four are a couple of rounds into their game, and likely won't be done for another hour. Three other players are squaring up for a game and have a chair free, but one of them is that person who runs a super competitive deck. It is very likely nobody else will arrive for EDH tonight, I am usually one of the last people arriving because of work (which I'm even leaving a bit early to get here at a good enough time).
What do I do?:
  • Not play with that second group at all. Sit around watching the groups for like an hour before I can maybe(!) join the first group. That assumes they're ready and willing to take a fifth player and assuming seats beside them are available; tables are limited at this store and it's often pretty full on EDH night because of people also playing standard, modern, etc.
  • Say hi to the people I'm friendly with, have a few words if possible, and head straight back home. I've just spent about 2 hours to do that, instead of just heading straight home in 40 minutes. I won't really be all that happy about that: seeing them was nice but I came out here to play some EDH.
  • Ask to join the second group. They invite me to sit with them. I do so. Then I:
    • Play with them and be miserable?
    • Ask that problem player to not play their Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck or whatever, or else I won't play? (This seems pretty rude: I asked to be here, and now I have a problem with being here?)
    • If that problem player has no less powerful deck, do I ask them to leave the game so that I can play? (That seems pretty rude and arrogant.)
    • Do I rally the other two players against this one person to have them want to kick him out of the game? (That's even worse. I'm basically forcing that player to just go home at this point or something.)
    • Bring my own mega-powerful deck to be on par with theirs, be part of the problem, and make the other two players miserable and put myself on someone's list of problem players?
  • Something else???

I don't know what the solution is. Only now as I'm writing this, I'm thinking the best solution is to speak up with that second pod, say I'm interested, but be up-front that I'm interested in Problem Player using a different deck, then we can negotiate whether or not I join the group based on their response to that, but it's still not a great outcome: I'm probably still just going home. All the rest of the options make at least one person miserable. This wasn't a rare situation either: it feels like it happened maybe a third of the time I went, so it killed my enthusiasm for heading out to the game store, so I just stopped going and as a result entirely stopped playing EDH for a while.

EDH provides zero guidance for me handling anything like this despite it being intrinsic to how an enormous number of people play format, and it costs people like me the ability to play and enjoy themselves. So while it's super simple to say, it's not straightforward to resolve this situation. I'm open to your take on it if you're interested in providing one. Mostly, I think the EDH RC needs to create substantial official guidance for the playerbase on situations like this.

Bottom line though I think I'm semi venting, semi pointing out the EDH RC needs to do some work, but mostly trying to demonstrate “don't play with them” despite being simple in theory is not very simple in practice.

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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-13 1:29 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
That sounds like you have a complex situation and a judgement call to make. That's not on the RC, that's on you. The RC isn't there to police how you interact with each other, we're all adults here for the most part and the onus is on us to interact with people.


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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-13 2:19 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
I think there are these scenarios.

1. Organized event: In an organized event the owner should give the rules for it

2. Casual play with strangers: in this case I think you and your playmates should agree beforehand how you will choose the commanders, because If you choose X then I can chopse Y to counter, and it is not fair for the people going first pcik, so maybe everyone should revel the commander at once.

3. Casual play with friends: in this case people normally talk about the commander he/she wants to play so we all know beforehand, and we should because maybe I dont want to play a control deck if there are 2 more people playing control (just to not have a 4hr long game), etc.

For scenario #1 call the judge, for #2 and #3, just talk to people beforehand

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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-13 3:41 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Marit Lage wrote:
That sounds like you have a complex situation and a judgement call to make. That's not on the RC, that's on you. The RC isn't there to police how you interact with each other, we're all adults here for the most part and the onus is on us to interact with people.

It is a complex situation, and we are adults. I've also played in tabletop RPG systems that have significant amounts of guidance on navigating difficult situations likely to come up proximity of the game, from developers who have gone to lengths to find good solutions to those situations. It helps enormously. It means we don't have to spend so much time reinventing the wheel figuring out what the developers already figured out because they disseminated what they'd learned.

The RC won't have all the answers to all the situations, but they've been around the block a few times more than most EDH players, and I'm hoping they'd have a lot to share about what does/doesn't work when difficult issues come up around EDH.

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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-13 5:40 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken

I agree with just about everything you said except the whole bit about how you should not play with miserable people.

I’ve found the best way to interact with people and their play styles is just to change your deck slightly to beat them when you see them. IE playing bolgardan hellkite when Armageddon is on the stack and removing the creature they tried to set up and king making yourself all in one go with that play.

Or design you deck to take the punishment and overcome the adversity that can be part of the field of play. Life from the loam is a great example of a playable main deck card that outta be a staple in most green splash decks.

Allowing them to eject themselves might bring harm to your game but it’s better then trying to not let them play at all and if they have any understanding of what’s going on with the social contract. They will eventually bring a deck that doesn’t go infinite or doesn’t make people scoop up the game by turn 4.

Allowing them to make the choice and watch others have fun afterwards allows them to make a choice to continue playing the way they choose to. It discourages them to play those effects if they actual want to enjoy the game because they have to wait until the game finishes at its own pace.

Therefore it’s on them to change their play if they wish. It’s a much better solution then just avoiding them all together and usually the more competive the less the affect a longer game overall. Long being turns 9-14 winning the game instead of 4-8.

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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-13 8:17 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Thraximundar wrote:
I’ve found the best way to interact with people and their play styles is just to change your deck slightly to beat them when you see them.

That is what starts the arms race, which ends with "Who can combo turn 1 most consistently?". It's nice to say "just adapt", but that fails to recognize that they can adapt to YOU as well, and depending how often you encounter these players, sets up a game of OP leapfrog.

Thraximundar wrote:
Or design you deck to take the punishment and overcome the adversity that can be part of the field of play. Life from the loam is a great example of a playable main deck card that outta be a staple in most green splash decks.

LftL is a good card, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything we're talking about here.

Thraximundar wrote:
Allowing them to eject themselves might bring harm to your game but it’s better then trying to not let them play at all

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on that point.

Thraximundar wrote:
Allowing them to make the choice and watch others have fun afterwards allows them to make a choice to continue playing the way they choose to. It discourages them to play those effects if they actual want to enjoy the game because they have to wait until the game finishes at its own pace.

That has not been my experience. At all. I've played with "combo off then scoop" players, and A: They are not at all discouraged - they just go do other stuff or play with other people and don't care, and B: It still leaves the rest of the table in a shamble - we've either exhausted all our resources trying and failing to stop the inevitable, or some other power vacuum is created that turns the game on its head.

Thraximundar wrote:
Therefore it’s on them to change their play if they wish.

That's correct, but until they wish to, I have no interest in their participation.

@Spacemonaut: That entire rant is, in a nutshell, the problem with the LGS environment, and a big reason some people lobby for way more cards to be banned. I don't have a perfect solution for you, nor do I think the RC does. It really comes down to choosing your form of misery - miserable game or not getting to play. To me, it's not worth playing with those people, because the kind of decks I find unacceptable are the kind that make it so I'm not actually playing the game even when I technically am - STAX, Mindslaver lock, stuff like that. Superfast combo is a lesser sin, since at least then you can start a new game, preferably without that deck involved. I guess my question for you is what did the non-problem players think of playing with the problem player in those scenarios? Did they just not care? Were they ignorant of what was coming?

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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-13 2:36 pm 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
When referring to life from the loam I was talking about it in the context of mass LD. As for how the people in your area and card shops interact with the game. Well that’s how they might interact but usually it only takes one time for someone at my three local shops here in Tampa, Florida to stop doing that. The whole point of cEDH is to shuffle and play more games then edh and play at legacy level. If you get rid of having fast games they can’t or won’t play with you. Also you could just play more low cost removal spells/abilities in your deck and just target them with table if they are that obnoxious. Which is what you make it sound like. Most of the cEDH players ask the powerful leve of the table before they play and they usually have non competive decks.

You are right that it can turn into an arms race, but good low cmc removal isn’t an arms race issue as much as trying to go infinite to win. Cards like possibility storm and perpelxing chimera can beat cEDH list in my local shops all the time when they don’t go off on turn 4. Stony silence and null rod bully their decks and a well placed silent gravestone/ relic of progenisis can end their grave interaction. These cards are also decent for casual play so it hardly changes your meta into cEDH by playing good answers.

I don’t like cEDH but my list runs as close to it without actually becoming an infinite combo/lockout list. I like to play the game and interact with the players at a much slower level then cEDH. It’s vary sad to hear someone getting shafted by a handful of players that don’t understand the difference between the two formats.

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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-14 9:22 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
@Spacemonaut: That entire rant is, in a nutshell, the problem with the LGS environment, and a big reason some people lobby for way more cards to be banned. I don't have a perfect solution for you, nor do I think the RC does. It really comes down to choosing your form of misery - miserable game or not getting to play. To me, it's not worth playing with those people, because the kind of decks I find unacceptable are the kind that make it so I'm not actually playing the game even when I technically am - STAX, Mindslaver lock, stuff like that. Superfast combo is a lesser sin, since at least then you can start a new game, preferably without that deck involved. I guess my question for you is what did the non-problem players think of playing with the problem player in those scenarios? Did they just not care? Were they ignorant of what was coming?

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I'm not sure if they were aware or not, but that's a good attitude toward superfast combo I hadn't considered — I could just let it play out then ask them if they have something slower (that is also non-stax; I've had similar problems).

I'm also going to try some new methods of finding play groups. :)

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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-15 5:03 am 

Joined: 2013-Apr-02 12:46 pm
Age: Wyvern
Mr Degradation wrote:
[
Selecting commanders is an opportunity to discuss what sort of game to expect . . .But if you want to win every encounter by trying to mise unnecessary amounts of information- you've already failed at EDH.


I'm not one to often say, "this is how you're supposed to play", but this is how you're supposed to play. I typically have around 5 decks on me of varying power levels and my goal is always to have a fun, interactive game. As such, it is really to my benefit, and the benefit of the other players, to get a feel for the level of game the table wants to have. I don't want to be completely left in the dust by much more powerful decks, nor do I want to goldfish my way to victory.

The objective is to win, but the point is to have fun, and we shouldn't confuse the two.


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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-15 2:19 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Thraximundar wrote:
Most of the cEDH players ask the powerful leve of the table before they play and they usually have non competive decks.

This is what is called "doing it the right way". We're not discussing that situation - I wouldn't be advocating not playing with people that are ready and willing to play at the general power level of the table. Nor am I advocating not playing with people that like or possess such decks. I'm advocating not playing with people that don't give a shit that they're goldfishing or actively enjoy it because it makes them feel special, and thus think it's OK to play a deck that consistantly wins turn 3 against decks that are more in the turn 12 range or think it's OK to run miserable lock decks that are designed to frustrate you until you scoop.

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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 10:12 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
I prefer to reveal my commander before the game begins. Most people that I've played with are the same way. So far, all of the people that I've met who don't want to tell people what they're playing have been disruptive and unsportsmanlike players who seem to want to eke out advantages by counterpicking or playing high-tier decks against more casual tables. I'm not saying that this is the rule for every player who does this, but there hasn't been an exception in my personal experience.


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 Post subject: Re: When are Commanders Revealed?
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 2:49 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Panphage wrote:
Truth
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