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 Post subject: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 8:19 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
Hello! I'm fairly new to the site and this is the first time that I'm posting a deck list here. I would appreciate any thoughts, questions or suggestions that you might have for this deck. I'm not trying to combo or be overly competitive. I'm mostly just trying to play a bunch of cool Angels and have a good time.

Commander (1):

Avacyn, Angel of Hope

Creatures (22):

1x Serra Ascendant
Resplendent Angel
Angel of Finality
Angel of Jubilation
Archangel of Tithes
Gisela, the Broken Blade
Guardian Seraph
Indomitable Archangel
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Sublime Archangel
Archangel of Thune
Baneslayer Angel
Blinding Angel
Herald of War
Lyra Dawnbringer
Admonition Angel
Angelic Arbiter
Bruna, the Fading Light
Emeria Shepherd
Platinum Angel
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Iona, Shield of Emeria

Instants (10):

Enlightened Tutor
Path to Exile
Silence
Swords to Plowshares
Tithe
Disenchant
Teferi's Protection
Comeuppance
Return to Dust
Settle the Wreckage

Sorceries (8):

Steelshaper's Gift
Council's Judgment
Armageddon
Ravages of War
Wrath of God
Rout
Akroma's Vengeance
Hour of Revelation

Artifacts (17):

Chrome Mox
Mana Crypt
Mox Diamond
Mox Opal
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
Lightning Greaves
Pearl Medallion
Scroll Rack
Swiftfoot Boots
Extraplanar Lens
Herald's Horn
Nevinyrral's Disk
Gauntlet of Power
Worldslayer
Caged Sun
Akroma's Memorial

Enchantments (7):

Land Tax
Runed Halo
Aura of Silence
Grasp of Fate
Leyline of Sanctity
Smothering Tithe
True Conviction

Lands (35):

Ancient Den
Ancient Tomb
Cavern of Souls
Emeria, the Sky Ruin
Maze of Ith
Mistveil Plains
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Seraph Sanctuary
27× Snow-Covered Plains


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 8:36 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
If you really mean this;

Panphage wrote:
I'm not trying to combo or be overly competitive.


why are you running the lamest interactions possible with Avacyn?

Panphage wrote:
1× Armageddon
1× Ravages of War


I won't fault you for the wraths, but those are just being a dick. Don't be a dick. And if you feel you must be, don't claim to be "just playing a bunch of cool angels and looking to have a good time".

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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 9:12 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Yeah, those are some pretty feel-bad cards. Does your playgroup enjoy the MLD? I mean, is there are reason you include them in your deck?

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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 9:53 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
I play those cards as part of my endgame strategy. The playgroups that I'm in have no problem with Armageddon when it's not being used to stall the game or play solitaire until you can cobble together a win.

I have to admit that I'm surprised by the overly personal reaction that you're having to those cards. Mass land destruction can be used in lame ways, but it's definitely lamer to automatically assume the worst about a player because they have win conditions in their decks. I hope that it's not standard practice here for people to be so judgmental of others that they don't even know. Armageddon and Ravages of War are nowhere near the worst things in the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 10:30 am 

Joined: 2012-May-21 2:31 pm
Age: Drake
Panphage wrote:
I play those cards as part of my endgame strategy. The playgroups that I'm in have no problem with Armageddon when it's not being used to stall the game or play solitaire until you can cobble together a win.
I would argue that Avacyn + any of those cards is pretty much already a wincon.
Panphage wrote:
I'm mostly just trying to play a bunch of cool Angels and have a good time.
Just speaking from my own experience, several of your cards choices lead to no one else having a "good time". Iona, Avacyn + any of Armageddon, Ravages of War, Nevinyrral's Disk, and Worldslayer are pretty much guaranteed to lead to a board state that is pretty much not fun for anyone else. Maybe your playgroup is cool with that? I don't know, but from my own perspective, it is not fun. I also am curious about your choice of Steelshaper's Gift with only three equipment to get. The obvious choice in my mind is to always go for Worldslayer. If that's not the case, then color me surprised and what is Steelshaper's Gift doing for you then?


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 10:33 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Panphage wrote:
I play those cards as part of my endgame strategy. The playgroups that I'm in have no problem with Armageddon when it's not being used to stall the game or play solitaire until you can cobble together a win.

I have to admit that I'm surprised by the overly personal reaction that you're having to those cards...


Land destruction decks are kinda tough to gauge for strangers on the internet; a lot of players get frustrated playing against them. Same with Iona. So when you say "I'm just trying to play angels and have a good time," but your endgame is Avacyn + Armageddon, it gets some raised eyebrows. You might want to specify in your OP that your group's ok with the deck.

...

As for the actual list, it feels a bit clumsy. The core idea is solid -- use indestructible stuff to create asymmetrical board wipes -- but Avacyn's the kind of giant haymaker that people see coming. If you want to make her work, you either need some early board presence to force your opponents' early answers, or you need to play a long control game with the goal of Avacyn + board wipe on the same turn, on turn 15. This list is perched unhappily in the middle; it doesn't really have much early game, but it doesn't have the long game of a standard-issue, board-wipes.dec build either.

It also falls into the same trap I see a lot of MLD decks fall into... the deck's banking on resource denial as your endgame, but it's incredibly vulnerable to resource denial itself. It's leaning hard on its artifact mana, and an early Vandalblast or reanimated Bane of Progress is gonna knock it out of the game.

So I'd look at changing the tempo of the deck... I think it either wants to be faster and more aggressive, establishing an early board presence and keeping opponents off-kilter with the land-wipes, or it needs to drop the fast mana and play control.

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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 10:48 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
Steelshaper's Gift gets Lightning Greaves or Worldslayer for the low cost of one white mana. I almost always grab the former with it, because I want to be able to protect my expensive commander from something like Swords to Plowshares if I'm planning to cast a big spell. I'll grab Worldslayer if we're far into a game and I already have Lightning Greaves. White has to take what little bit of help it can get since it sucks for card advantage.

I'm not sure what type of win conditions this board would be okay with, but there isn't that much of a difference between me blowing up the board and ending the game right afterwards and any other strategy that can go off and win the game. People have plenty of opportunities to react to what I'm doing with a Counterspell or whatever else.

I hate to say this to people who have been posting here for years, but it's not my job as a new poster to explain why I'm not a lame dick who deprives other people of the ability to play either. It's unreasonable to expect me to know that you will have opinions about my deck and that I need to preface it in order to avoid personal insults or accusations. If you want to know why I play specific cards, you can ask me without doing those things. That's really the last that I'm willing to talk on this one particular subject. If I'm coming across as harsh, I apologize, but I'm certainly not the one who initiated this uncomfortable conversation.

If anyone wants to make a productive recommendation, feel free.


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 11:11 am 

Joined: 2012-May-21 2:31 pm
Age: Drake
Panphage wrote:
I'm not sure what type of win conditions this board would be okay with, but there isn't that much of a difference between me blowing up the board and ending the game right afterwards and any other strategy that can go off and win the game.
Again, speaking just from my own experience with Avacyn decks like yours, it generally plays out like this: Avacyn gets out, board wipe, MLD, whatever happens, and the then the Avacyn player does usually proceed to win, but not right away. It leads to a board state that the Avacyn player is almost certainly going to win, but they are reduced to killing each player at a time, usually with Avacyn herself. Sure that will only take 2-3 turns per player, but in the meantime, everyone else is pretty much hoping for that Swords, or Path, or whatever exile effect that they may have to just even try to deal. Avacyn decks like yours tend to lead to the same board states that Braids, Cabal Minion led to. That's my main "problem" with Avacyn decks. I am not trying to be accusatory towards you specifically Panphage, but that's just how I've seen these decks played and it is just generally not fun IMO. Now, if your playgroup is totally fine with that, then sure go nuts with it.

Are you already looking to add things from Modern Horizons? Because if so, Serra the Benevolent, On Thin Ice, Winds of Abandon, and Generous Gift might be worth considering.


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 11:18 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Worst game; Avacyn. Armageddon. Player 2 goes Plains, Path to Exile (because they just drew it)

Game goes back to the stone age. People die of boredom. Civilisations fall and planets implode. Rocks fall and everyone dies.

Is that what you want? Is it?

:P

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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 11:26 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
Personally, I've not had too much trouble being able to end the game quickly at the time that I'm ready to wipe the board. It's not that hard to swing for big damage with cards like True Conviction and Archangel of Thune.

All of the Modern Horizons cards that you've mentioned have my attention. I'll be working out whether they have a place in the deck when they come out. Serra the Benevolent is the sort of thing that I've been waiting years for.

Viperion wrote:
Worst game; Avacyn. Armageddon. Player 2 goes Plains, Path to Exile (because they just drew it)

Game goes back to the stone age. People die of boredom. Civilisations fall and planets implode. Rocks fall and everyone dies.

Is that what you want? Is it?

:P


As I said, I am aware that this can happen so I don't play the deck in a way where it does. Land destruction is for the end of the game. We have a few people around here that do make games go this way though.


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 2:15 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Panphage wrote:
I have to admit that I'm surprised by the overly personal reaction that you're having to those cards.

Why? You've elected to share this list to get the thoughts of others. When I look at someone's decklist, a part of my analysis is absolutely whether I would want to play a game with someone piloting that deck. In this case, the answer is no. And I apologize for saying so a little more colorfully than was strictly necessary.

If no one you play with minds this, that's fine, but I can assure you that a lot of people find that strategy obnoxious and lame, partly because it's one of those things that's been done to death, and partly because "ha ha you don't get to do things anymore" isn't especially fun. In other words, if you introduce yourself to a new group, say "I'm gonna play my casual angel deck" and then pull that, there is a decent chance you won't be welcomed back for another game. And I have seen this kind of thing happen - a LOT.

Panphage wrote:
I hate to say this to people who have been posting here for years, but it's not my job as a new poster to explain why I'm not a lame dick who deprives other people of the ability to play either. It's unreasonable to expect me to know that you will have opinions about my deck and that I need to preface it in order to avoid personal insults or accusations.

The thing is, it's not unreasonable to expect you to know we'll have opinions, because pretty much everyone has an opinion (or will form one) about whatever you show them. If I show you my decklist, you will have an opinion about it, be it good, bad or indifferent, and I cannot expect you not to share it. Furthermore, a good preface can really help refine the kind of feedback you get - part of the reason you got the reaction you did (and again, I apologize) is that the preface ("Here's my casual angel deck") was brief and felt contradictory, rather than "Here is how this deck works... (explain explain explain), this is how people react to it (explain explain explain), I would like suggestions for (reasons)." If you feel you don't need to tell us what's up, you can't complain when we draw our own conclusions from what we see. Also, for the record, I would tell someone with 2,000 posts the same thing I told you - it has nothing to do with your new status.

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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 3:27 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Here's the part that I'm personally curious about: why Avacyn as the general? Without even considering angels that aren't already in the deck, Lyra and Bruna both far better fit the theme of angel tribal, Linvala gives you some early board presence to counteract your incredibly high mana costs, and Akroma is a much more aggressive pick.

Furthermore, I generally am not a fan of running really big and scary cards with game-defining effects as the general specifically because I'll be broadcasting from turn 0 "shut me down early and completely or I'll be unstoppable". Big scary effects are much more impactful when my opponents don't constantly have them on the brain and aren't actively waiting for their appearance.

Aside from that, a few thoughts/suggestions:

The biggest problem I'd fear from your deck is running out of gas. You have exactly one card that does anything to increase your card flow, and it only works 1/5th of the time. Most of your card advantage comes from removal/lockdown effects, which puts a pretty massive target on your back and makes having a full grip even more important. Since you're running tribal Vanquisher's Banner is always a good one, and other great options include the Mind Stone trio, Mind's Eye, Staff of Nin, Well of Lost Dreams, The Immortal Sun, Karn, Scion of Urza, Ugin, the Ineffable, Dawn of Hope, Inheritance, Alms Collector, and even Endless Atlas. Cantrips and cycling effects are also always nice, and Decree of Justice seems like the definition of the type of card you want in this deck.

I also think that 23 angels is just a teensy bit on the light side in regards to an angel tribal deck. Radiant, Archangel's absence is particularly noticeable, and Reya Dawnbringer, Angelic Field Marshall, Emeria Shepherd, Angel of Serenity and Angel of the Dire Hour are all fantastic as well.

And finally, I pretty much agree with what everyone else has said regarding Geddon and Worldslayer and friends. They tend to create interesting games one out of every 20 times they appear, and miserable games the other 19. Taking them out of your deck will also have the bonus benefit of taking a pretty significant amount of the target off of your back.


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-29 9:46 pm 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
The difference between having an opinion and making an assumption and expressing it by insulting people is pretty big. What you're doing right now is a lot more productive than calling me a dick because you've had bad experiences with certain cards.

I appreciate the feedback. I actually own a lot of the cards that you mentioned. Emeria Shepherd is already in my deck. I'm going to see what I can move around to try out some of the others.


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 2:44 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-22 8:08 am
Age: Drake
Hey Panphage;

If you insist on using mass land destruction as a win condition. Which I imagine would go something like this:

Turn 12ish: I have Avacyn, and 3 other flying Angels! I cast Armageddon! You have no lands and cannot play anything! I take the next X turns swinging with my indestructible army of big flyers, playing spells and creatures as needed with my full unaffected manabase. mwahaha mwahaha mwahahah!

If I were in your playgroup. I would then save removal every game to remove avacyn, preferably at instant speed, so that you lose your lands as well. Also, winning with Mass land destruction won't earn you friends because it literally prevents your opponents from using their cards if it resolves. Chances are, after winning the first game, the players at the table would make an unspoken social contract to simply kill you first in a "everyone versus you until you die and the real game can begin".

None of my friends play Mass Land Destruction, because it has a distinctly unfun feel to it. Though, I actually agree with you. If it is used as a win condition, and actually works...it's not bad. What really sucks, is if it is done and then the game just drags....

Just my thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 4:02 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
...Linvala gives you some early board presence to counteract your incredibly high mana costs...


Linvala, Keeper of Silence is where I was headed above asking about more aggressive vs. more controlling. If the endgame is win-by-scoop, I think Linvala is a better option; use your fast mana to ramp out Linvala + Armageddon, supported by other Stax-y kinds of cards to thoroughly crush everyone's mana. Same endgame, but Linvala gets you there many turns faster.

CanadianCole wrote:
If I were in your playgroup. I would then save removal every game to remove avacyn, preferably at instant speed, so that you lose your lands as well.


Yeah, agreed. Deck's gonna look pretty bad when an opponent overloads Cyclonic Rift in response to Armageddon.

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