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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-15 1:34 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Well, I only play paper Magic, so I won't worry about what online people think. Jhoira would allow me to bypass costs pretty handily, and timing spells to hit at the right time could be interesting. I just like finding ways to play cards people typically dislike or find objectionable due to power level or something. Like that Numot deck I built not long ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-15 5:50 am 
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Jhoira is pretty awesome in this list, actually. I dig it.

Just talking about this deck has made me want to consider trying my own hand at it. (Though the Johnny part of me still wants to try and build mono-brown sunburst out of Ramos).

I'll piece together a similar list sometime this weekend and see what I come up with.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-15 7:07 am 
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Jeyal wrote:
Jhoira is pretty awesome in this list, actually. I dig it.

Just talking about this deck has made me want to consider trying my own hand at it. (Though the Johnny part of me still wants to try and build mono-brown sunburst out of Ramos).

I'll piece together a similar list sometime this weekend and see what I come up with.

I'm glad it has inspired you. I hope your deck works out. I'll be honest, my scant testing so far has suggested most early turns are spent looking as sheepishly innocent as possible as I don't play any cards.

There's some changes I'm making to my list. I didn't want to pull Partner legends due to really wanting to build decks with them, but I feel it'll be important to making sure this deck works. I also grabbed some rare lands I'd been saving for my Cube.

- Bloodbraid Elf, Xenagos, the Reveler, Ashen Rider, some basics

+ Tymna the Weaver, Reyhan, Last of the Abzan, Thrasios, Triton Hero, Spirebluff Canal, Inspiring Vantage, Blooming Marsh, Botanical Sanctum, Concealed Courtyard

These lands aren't the greatest, but they're something at least. They'll do for now. Tymna and Thrasios grant me some draw and scry, while Reyhan works well with Ramos. My hope is lowering the curve and the more solid abilities will help in the long run. I'd still really like to get Sire of Stagnation in here, but I can't get past the devoid ability ruining my plans (doesn't work with Ramos, can't be returned with stuff like Reborn Hope...ugh...).

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-16 7:42 pm 
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Well, here's the first draft. Played a few (4-6ish) 3-player games just to see how it goes. Ramos gets big in a hurry if you get to untap with him in play. Swinging for 8-15 was pretty standard if he doesn't eat removal right away. The games it won were mainly via general damage. I found myself rarely pulling counters off of him for mana.

*The three mana cascade spells only have four options. Three of those four are mana accelerants/fixers (the other is Hull Breach).
*The borderposts were pretty solid for me. Good early, and reasonably acceptable 1 mana for 2 +1/+1 counters late.
*Trap Essence is a sneaky way to get 5 +1/+1s onto Ramos.

*Congregation at Dawn is the only card in the deck requiring more than one of a particular color of mana. As expected, setting up cascade chains with it is pretty great.

*Bring to Light,Taigam, Ojutai Master, and Rashmi, Eternities Crafter are noteworthy, because they cast extra spells. They're like a different form of cascade.

*I went pretty budget on the manabase- -essentially just adding Cascading Cataracts (for the name!) and some borderposts to the manabase from the Dragon precon that Ramos came in. Only really had issues with one game where an untimely Shatterstorm happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-16 9:49 pm 
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I was afraid of cascade being too much of a one-trick pony, since the most of those cards are individually weak. On the flip side, you've also set them up to hit specific things in your deck which is the smartest way to play cascade, and maybe starting with that as the basis for the deck is more consistent than what I'm doing.

The borderposts seemed worthwhile though? I guess I'll have to reconsider them. I'm still a little hesitant about the creatures producing one color of mana, since it seemed like they'd be useless when you're trying to play multiple gold cards in a turn (they ramp, but if they only ramp in one color it's often not going to be a color you really need--especially since the mana they produce you already have access to). Again on the other hand, maybe it's better to have them available in order to get Ramos out quicker.

Most of what you've put together is all stuff I considered from the cards I own. Trap Essence got put aside because I felt it might be too restrictive due to requiring three colors of mana. Slave of Bolas was in the 5-CMC slot that needed to be cut down. Supply//Demand is stuck waiting on another 5-color deck I'm building. That sort of thing. I do want to find a spot for Rashmi, but I also need to get another Rashmi (since the only one of her I got was one to build a Polymorph deck with her as the commander).

And finally the land--I think I'm just going to have to sit down and see if there are good lands I can pull from other decks to make this one work instead of limp. I should really consider Cascading Cataracts though, when I think about buying cards that is.

Thank you very much for the write up! Your build is probably better than mine. Ramos does seem like the primary win condition for the deck, ahead of anything else. In testing, pretty much the only time I'd pull off counters for mana was when I knew it would mean immediately putting 5 or more back on through multiple charms, Bring to Light into something else, etc. What power level of decks were you playing against?

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-17 2:57 am 
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Okay, so I'm going to be working on making some changes and see how it turns out. I'm going to give the Borderposts and some low-CMC creatures sort of ramp creatures.

- Essence Backlash...........+ Trap Essence
- Cloven Casting.............+ Firemind's Foresight
- Fevered Visions.............+ Whispering Madness
- Psychic Intrusion...........+ Evil Twin

General changes:
- Nucklavee, Korozda Guildmage, Necrogenesis, Queen Marchesa, Jhessian Zombies, Migratory Route, Valley Rannet, Fires of Yavimaya, Down / Dirty, Fire Covenant

+ Reparations, Vithian Renegades, Kiora's Followers, Zhur-Taa Druid, Mistvein Borderpost, Fieldmist Borderpost, Veinfire Borderpost, Wildfield Borderpost, Firewild Borderpost, Selvala, Explorer Returned

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-18 11:46 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
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Location: Otaria
Segrus wrote:
The borderposts seemed worthwhile though? I guess I'll have to reconsider them. I'm still a little hesitant about the creatures producing one color of mana, since it seemed like they'd be useless when you're trying to play multiple gold cards in a turn (they ramp, but if they only ramp in one color it's often not going to be a color you really need--especially since the mana they produce you already have access to). Again on the other hand, maybe it's better to have them available in order to get Ramos out quicker.


I think I'm running a fewer basics (16) than your deck is, and the Borderposts are still pretty appreciated. It's better to play them on three as accelerants, but playing them for 1 as fixing is sometimes necessary. Once Ramos is out, if you draw them, it's like a land drop that gives Ramos +2/+2.

The 2-mana dorks only produce mana you already have (unless I cascade into them), but they do provide a bit more than just mana. Trace of Abundance is all upside, though.

Segrus wrote:
What power level of decks were you playing against?


Low-to-Medium? A mono-red "Chandra Tribal" deck (allowing for the new legendary rule, got to cast my first ever Merciless Eviction naming planeswalkers, heh), a Jeleva extra turns/wheels/mill/Possibility Storm deck, and a Jenara "kill via commander damage in one shot" deck.

It wasn't a particularly hostile-towards-big creatures environment. Not a lot of removal once Ramos could survive the burn spells. No threatens (which is odd for my usual playgroup).

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-19 7:56 am 
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Jeyal wrote:
The 2-mana dorks only produce mana you already have (unless I cascade into them), but they do provide a bit more than just mana.

Yes, a little more than just mana under certain conditions: when Ramos is already out, and only one time. Using them to get Ramos out or putting a couple +1/+1 counters on Ramos seem like the times they are most important. Otherwise, I'm afraid of them being dead weight. I'll have to wait and see.

Jeyal wrote:
Low-to-Medium?

Fair enough. This is what I was hoping and kinda what I'm expecting Ramos with this build will do well in. I was just wanting to be sure the environment you played it in wasn't filled with rather weaker decks.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-19 2:56 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
Okay, so this will be my first deck, where all non-basic lands are also going to be golden - there are enough to fill two decks.

What is your experience - how many basic lands one does one need to somewhat reliably support Borderposts?
With 3 of each type the chance to have one in your opener is near 70%. If you count the basic land cyclers from last year's precons, 2 of each could be enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-20 11:46 am 
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Thor_Naadoh wrote:
Okay, so this will be my first deck, where all non-basic lands are also going to be golden - there are enough to fill two decks.

What is your experience - how many basic lands one does one need to somewhat reliably support Borderposts?
With 3 of each type the chance to have one in your opener is near 70%. If you count the basic land cyclers from last year's precons, 2 of each could be enough.

Hey cool, I'm glad you're joining the party!

On supporting the Borderposts, sounds like you've already got a good handle on how many you need. I'd like to say I can be more scientific about it. Three of each though is probably a pretty solid number though. If I could test that out for you, I would.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-20 2:06 pm 
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Location: Germany, near Berlin
Math is one thing - experience is another. No need not to profit if others have already done testing.

Btw, my "special" about the deck is going to be each golden clone card I could find, and a lone Biovisionary (wanted to do that one for a long time)
There are seven "clones" I found, that would work:
Riku, Dack's Duplicate, Evil Twin, Progenitor Mimic, Altered Ego, Cytoshape, Saheeli

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Melek, Izzet Paragon (Dragonstorm) -> these must stay because of a house rule


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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-21 6:14 am 
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I was swinging towards the clone route, but they didn't play nicely with the cascade effects. Dack's Duplicate was the last card cut from my list.

I think three of each basic is probably okay for borderpost reasons. Keep in mind it's typically better early to cast them at full cost. I usually only pay 1 and return a basic if the fixing is paramount (or I would otherwise miss a land drop), unless Ramos is out already.

I'll get another chance to play it a bunch tomorrow night. Will likely have more to report.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-21 11:49 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 4:04 pm
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Thor_Naadoh wrote:
Btw, my "special" about the deck is going to be each golden clone card I could find, and a lone Biovisionary (wanted to do that one for a long time)
There are seven "clones" I found, that would work:
Riku, Dack's Duplicate, Evil Twin, Progenitor Mimic, Altered Ego, Cytoshape, Saheeli


Mirrorweave works for this if you cast it during the second main phase of the player directly after you in turn order. (Assuming everyone gets a "win the game" trigger, yours will resolve first.)

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-21 11:36 pm 
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Coco wrote:
Thor_Naadoh wrote:
Btw, my "special" about the deck is going to be each golden clone card I could find, and a lone Biovisionary (wanted to do that one for a long time)
There are seven "clones" I found, that would work:
Riku, Dack's Duplicate, Evil Twin, Progenitor Mimic, Altered Ego, Cytoshape, Saheeli


Mirrorweave works for this if you cast it during the second main phase of the player directly after you in turn order. (Assuming everyone gets a "win the game" trigger, yours will resolve first.)

That sounds ultra risky, but it would be very memorable.

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 Post subject: Re: Ramos Golden Dragon Engine
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-22 8:45 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
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I like the idea of cascade.

You can play the good cascade cards and Maelstrom Nexus.


If I were building Ramos, I think I would try my darnedest to fit the Alara Shard Charms and the Khans Wedge Charms... All ten. For the glory of gold.

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